Talk:Shakespearean References in Turtledove's Work
The subsection on Shakespeare's influence on RB alone--which granted will certainly prove to be the largest, but will still be only one of many--is longer than the entire sections of every other author except Marlowe and Margaret Mitchell. Makes me wonder if we should give Shakespearean allusions their own page and provide only a link to the main article under the Shakespeare section heading. Turtle Fan 19:38, March 16, 2010 (UTC) I did an Amazon search for Shakespeare in every TL-191, Worldwar, and Atlantis book (but not LA which can't be searched inside) as well as MWIH. I also flogged my memory for the occasional line that does not mention Shakespeare specifically. And I searched GotS, HW, and both DoI books; those all turned up empty. Still, I feel like I'm missing stuff. I seem to recall there being a Hamlet crib in either BoG or TGS but I don't think I can bring myself to dig through those steaming piles of shit to find it. Also I couldn't remember Grimes referencing Caesar, which he does according to our article on that play, and I couldn't hit on the right combination of search criteria to find it. But with the Shakespeare section approaching completion, it does seem rather large for this page, doesn't it? I'm worried it will frighten the other sections. Think it merits its own page? :Given the Bard's unique position in English lit (and actually global lit, if various studies are to be believed), a separate article is probably called for. TR 06:37, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm inclined to agree with the studies on Shakespeare's position on global lit. For nearly the entire period that there's been enough of a global system to allow cultural exchange, Anglophones (first the UK and recently the US) have been in the best position to do so. And Shakespeare being the giant of the English language, he could hardly help being transmitted into other languages' literary consciousness. In fact I can think of no one who's been more widely translated, except the writers of the Bible. ::A testament to this prominence, when I moved the section from Literary Allusions to here it was quite close to 11,000 characters. And it will have passed that since I've now added the bit about General Guildenstern, shame on me for forgetting it last night. There must be more WBtP cribs but I can't think of any offhand. (I remember when we were trying to trace the origins of Nonesuch, Mak said he always assumed Shakespearean reference till proved otherwise. Not unlike Dowling's mistake with Milton in TG.) Turtle Fan 17:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::We figured out Nonesuch. It's in the article. It was a castle established by Henry VIII. TR 18:26, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::Eventually, yes. At the time, his first step was to make the assumption. Turtle Fan 20:54, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Oh, and the 19th century German translation in ItPoME--I rummaged around a bit to see if I could find a famous 19th century translation, thinking that the translator might merit a mention himself. There were some dozen plus full and partial Germanizations of the Bard in that century. I don't suppose Susanna gave us any clues with which to whittle that down a bit? Turtle Fan 04:52, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :'Fraid not. Just that he was more popular in Germany than in the English speaking world. TR 06:37, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Hamlet takes it by a mile in terms of sheer number of allusions. I wonder if that's because HT quotes from it most heavily, or because I myself know it best of Shakespeare's works and am least likely to miss something from there. Turtle Fan 22:55, January 5, 2011 (UTC) Lee Preferring Shakespeare A book I read last summer contained an off-the-cuff reference to Lee's wife dragging him to see King Lear and Lee having dreaded the experience. Personally I find it rather hard to imagine him reading anything other than the Bible and military and engineering texts. Turtle Fan (talk) 15:40, September 28, 2014 (UTC) :That's probably a fair assessment of Lee. However, if my hazy memory on the subject is correct, if a person (well, man) didn't at least try to read Shakespeare in the 19th Century, no matter how educated or naturally brilliant that person was, they were kind of looked down on. ::I know that self-taught men like Lincoln made liberal use of Shakespearean allusions as a way of preempting any accusations that their informal educations may have been lacking. I don't believe I've ever heard that the same was true of formally educated people, but it would make sense. Hell, you can't get through high school without reading a few of his plays today, and 21st century society is a lot less concerned with such things than 19th century society was. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:18, September 28, 2014 (UTC) :So I guess Lee's preferring Shakespeare to 19th Century authors is a plausible form of damning with faint praise. TR (talk) 15:50, September 28, 2014 (UTC) ::I should mention that the line I read this summer was as casual and inconsequential to that story as HT's line was to LatA, so I wouldn't assume that that author necessarily knew any more of the subject than HT does. In GotS, HT already had Lee buy a then-fairly recent novel (Ivanhoe, I think?) to keep him occupied during a long train ride, but setting it aside as soon as he got back to Richmond. I can buy that Lee had little interest in fiction generally (the impression I have of his character is that there's a good chance he would have dismissed it as vulgar or unmanly or some such). Going from that, if he preferred Shakespeare to contemporary writers I'd guess it was because Shakespeare at least had some utility in Lee's world, ie, making it possible to show off one's good breeding and have a gentlemanly conversation. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:18, September 28, 2014 (UTC)